I have been informed that Bob Thiele of the Continuing Church of God has posted a rebuttal to our belief here at BICOG of the identity of the King of the North of Daniel 11:40-45. Before I answer and refute what he claims here is what the post says...

Link here http://www.cogwriter.com/news/prophecy/bicog-claims-that-the-president-of-the-usa-is-the-king-of-the-north/

BICOG claims that the President of the USA is the King of the North

by COGwriter

A reader sent me the following last evening:

BICOG has identified NATO as the beast and the POTUS as the king of the north.

I responded that this view was “totally wrong.”

To check this out further, I decided to visit the BICOG (British Israel Church of God) website as well as watch a video that BICOG’s Peter Salemi produced about this titled Breaking News-Will Donald Trump be the King of the North Daniel 11:45..

In it, Peter Salemi made several odd and unbiblical claims.

He stated that the senior US President George Bush was the King of the North that fulfilled Daniel 11:40-43 back with the Gulf War in 1990. That is absurd. Let’s look at what those verses state:

40 “At the time of the end the king of the South shall attack him; and the king of the North shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter the countries, overwhelm them, and pass through. 41 He shall also enter the Glorious Land, and many countries shall be overthrown; but these shall escape from his hand: Edom, Moab, and the prominent people of Ammon. 42 He shall stretch out his hand against the countries, and the land of Egypt shall not escape. 43 He shall have power over the treasures of gold and silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt; also the Libyans and Ethiopians shall follow at his heels. (Daniel 11:40-43)

The Gulf War in 1990-1991 was code named Desert Shield. The USA led a coalition against Iraq mainly because of its invasion of Kuwait.

Daniel 11:40 tells of a war between the King of the North and the King of the South. While Iraq is expected to support the coming King of the South, it is not the King of the South itself. The King of the South will be south of Jerusalem and Iraq is mainly east of Jerusalem.

Daniel 11:41 states that the King of the North will then overthrow many countries. In the Gulf War, the USA liberated Kuwait. It did not even overthrow Iraq, though it beat it on the battlefield.

Daniel 11:42 states that the land of Egypt will not escape the King of the North. The USA did not invade Egypt during the Gulf War.

Daniel 11:43 states that the King of the North will “have power over the treasures of gold and silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt.” This also did not happen with the Gulf War.

Peter Salemi also claimed that the junior US President George Bush was the King of the North who fulfilled Daniel 11:44 with the ‘war on terrorism.’ Let’s look at Daniel 11:44:

44 But news from the east and the north shall trouble him; therefore he shall go out with great fury to destroy and annihilate many. (Daniel 11:44)

The ‘war on terrorism’ did result in a regime change in Iraq and Afghanistan. But this is not a fulfillment of Daniel 11:44. Daniel 11:44 is tied into scriptures such as the following:

50:41 “Behold, a people shall come from the north,
And a great nation and many kings
Shall be raised up from the ends of the earth.
42 They shall hold the bow and the lance;
They are cruel and shall not show mercy.
Their voice shall roar like the sea;
They shall ride on horses,
Set in array, like a man for the battle,
Against you, O daughter of Babylon.

43 “The king of Babylon has heard the report about them,
And his hands grow feeble;
Anguish has taken hold of him,
Pangs as of a woman in childbirth…”(Jeremiah 50:41-43).

1 The burden against Babylon which Isaiah the son of Amoz saw…

17 “Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them,
Who will not regard silver;
And as for gold, they will not delight in it.
18 Also their bows will dash the young men to pieces,
And they will have no pity on the fruit of the womb;
Their eye will not spare children.
19 And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms,
The beauty of the Chaldeans’ pride,
Will be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah. (Isaiah 13:1, 17-19)

11 Make the arrows bright!
Gather the shields!
The Lord has raised up the spirit of the kings of the Medes.
For His plan is against Babylon to destroy it,
Because it is the vengeance of the Lord,
The vengeance for His temple. (Jeremiah 51:11)

Essentially, Daniel 11:44 is telling us that a Eurasian power (which is north and east of Europe) will rise up against the European King of the North (watch also Can You Prove that the Beast to Come is European?).

Peter Salemi claims that Donald Trump is expected to be the King of the North who will fulfill Daniel 11:45. Let’s look at that verse:

45 And he shall plant the tents of his palace between the seas and the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and no one will help him. (Daniel 11:45)

This is not a prophecy about Donald Trump.

As far as the sequence of Daniel 11 goes, notice that the late WCG Pastor General Herbert W. Armstrong wrote the following:

In Daniel 11:21, referring in original, typical fulfillment to Antiochus Epiphanes, there shall stand up a vile person…So once again before the second coming of Christ, a vile leader will stop the daily sacrifices being offered…This same prophecy spoken by Jesus is also reported by Luke…21:20-24 (Armstrong HW. Personal, Plain Truth magazine, June 1967).

Thus, Herbert W. Armstrong clearly taught that starting at least from verse 21, that Daniel 11 had a dual/future fulfillment.

And it is the same person who is the final biblical King of the North from Daniel 11:21 through Daniel 11:45. For more details about that, check out the article Who is the King of the North?

In the same video, Peter Salemi implies that NATO is the endtime Beast composed of iron and potter’s clay, which seems to be a reference to Daniel 2:41-43. Basically, he says that the alliance of the USA with Europe in NATO is that combination. He says that China will do something that will cause NATO to end. I do not share his view on that.

The Book of Revelation identifies the Beast as an individual (Revelation 13:1-10) that will be destroyed upon Jesus’ return (Revelation 19:19-20). Thus, it cannot be NATO.

When I checked out more at BICOG’s website last night and today, I found that Peter Salemi had written improper and negative things about me. This was a surprise as I do not believe I had ever posted anything negative about him before nor have we met.

As far as his own background, Peter Salemi, says he began to attend with CGI in 1992 and left there in 1997 (CGI was founded by the late Garner Ted Armstrong).

BICOG is another non-Philadelphian group that is misleading people on prophecy and other matters. Those who rely on groups like BICOG will not possibly know when the Great Tribulation will begin, as well as have other spiritual problems. BICOG is one of many groups with that problem (for more details, see The Laodicean Church Era).

Donald Trump is NOT possibly the final King of the North of Daniel 11 and will NOT fulfill Daniel 11:45.

I perhaps should also add that in the sequence of Daniel 11, the USA itself gets taken over in verse 39, hence no President of the USA can possibly fulfill Daniel 11:40-45 (see also USA in Prophecy: The Strongest Fortresses).

It does matter which COG you pay attention to and support.

We in the Continuing Church of God “have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts” (2 Peter 1:19, KJV).”


Answer: The first point I want to touch on is the statement his reader posted, "BICOG has identified NATO as the beast and the POTUS as the king of the north." 

We never said that NATO is the Beast, but that NATO is the potters clay with the Iron and that the EU is the remnant of the 6th head of the Beast of prophecy.

Of course Bob Thiele says that this is "Totally wrong." Of course this man still clings on to the old Worldwide Church of God interpretation of Daniel 11 like all the rest of them and so they are not tuned into what is happening in world news which affects the Watchman Work.

He goes on to say that in my video, "Peter Salemi made several odd and unbiblical claims." Odd to him, yes because he and all the rest are clinging on to the old Worldwide Church of God interpretation of prophecy. But unbiblical? If you read our booklet Middle East in Prophecy you will read for yourself that we let the Bible interpret itself, and every claim is back up with scripture.

He then says its "absurd" to believe that George Bush Sr that led the Gulf War of 1990 is what Daniel 11:40-43 is speaking of.

Then he breaks it down verse by verse and tries to prove why it is absurd and does a poor job doing so...

The Gulf War in 1990-1991 was code named Desert Shield. The USA led a coalition against Iraq mainly because of its invasion of Kuwait.

Daniel 11:40 tells of a war between the King of the North and the King of the South. While Iraq is expected to support the coming King of the South, it is not the King of the South itself. The King of the South will be south of Jerusalem and Iraq is mainly east of Jerusalem.

We quote sources in that booklet that say the Gulf War was a "north south conflict." Now this argument we get this all the time and as we explain in the booklet it is the King OF THE south, not the King IN the south. We know that the southern nations of Jerusalem are the gulf states and at that time they  formed a coalition called the Gulf Cooperation Council (GCC), that included Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Oman, Qatar, and the United Arab Emirates. Iraq became a member, and then became the dominant leader in the Middle east and that alliance. He was also called the "Anointed One" and Kings are anointed, and so he became the King OF THE South. The southern ALLIANCE of those gulf countries are in the south of Jerusalem and Sadaam Hussein was the KING OF IT NOT THE KING IN IT! So without knowing the history of that time and the alliances that were there at that time you see where Bob Thiele is in great error.

In addition let me state that the King OF THE North is just that, the King OF THE North, not the King IN THE North. We know that "tidings" of out the east and the North "trouble" the King of the North (v.44), so the King of the North is in the North and the West. Now throughout this whole prophecy it is clear that the North means Europe, and Europe in the end time is clearly in an alliance with the Potter's clay which is the house of Israel Jer 18:6 (see Daniel 2:41). And who is the Leader of that great North Western Military alliance? The USA! NATO-THE POTTER CLAY! As plain as the nose on your face the King OF the North is the President of the USA. These nations of clay and Iron in Europe are bound together and the USA IS THE KING OF IT, NOT IN IT!

He goes on to say, "Daniel 11:41 states that the King of the North will then overthrow many countries. In the Gulf War, the USA liberated Kuwait. It did not even overthrow Iraq, though it beat it on the battlefield.

Bob Thiele of course is using the King James version of the Bible that says, "He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown" If you notice the word "countries" is in italics and was added by the translators.

The Ferrar Fenton along with the Douay-Rheims Bible translates this verse "many will fall." Without this humanly-added word, the prophecy merely says: "many shall be overthrown" by the attack of the king of the north. The spurious word "countries" misleads readers into thinking that "many nations" must be defeated in this latter-day war, but that is not necessary to fulfill this prophecy.

The Bible in Basic English says, "tens of thousands will be overcome" The Contemporary English Version states, "tens of thousands will be killed." The English Standard Version says, "Tens of thousands shall fall." God's Word Version says, "tens of thousands will be defeated." This is more along the lines of armies and troops falling as opposed to countries. And this was fulfilled, In fact, "many soldiers were overthrown" as huge numbers of Iraqi soldiers were slaughtered in the "blitzkrieg" war which NATO and its allies fought against Iraq. Saddam Hussein possessed "a million man army," but it crumbled under the weight of the American, British and allied air strikes and tank assaults. 

Thiele then claims, "Daniel 11:42 states that the land of Egypt will not escape the King of the North. The USA did not invade Egypt during the Gulf War." Notice that Thiele did not quote the whole verse to keep it in its context! He just says "the land of Egypt will not escape" and implies that the King of the North "invades" Egypt. But this is NOT WHAT IT SAYS! Look at the whole verse in its context, "He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape" To stretch forth one’s "hand" means to exert ones power or authority over another city or country, as the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia says, "The hand in the sense of power and authority: (compare Assyrian idu, "strength")." (Under "The hand as power"). Egypt shall not escape the King of the North's authority or power. During the war in the Gulf the United States was given the authority To go to war against Iraq and Egypt was under Its Authority as well. The USA use the Suez Canal to bring in fuel and supplies for the operation.

Thiele claims, "Daniel 11:43 states that the King of the North will “have power over the treasures of gold and silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt.” This also did not happen with the Gulf War." This is simply not true. We document in that booklet that  The "gold and silver" means their economies of the nations in the Middle East including Egypt. Vine’s explains about the word "Zahab" Strong’s #2091, "Gold was used as money, being exchanged in various weights and values..." (p.99). The word "silver" means in the Strong’s #3701, "keseph...From H3700; silver (from its pale color); by implication money: - money, price, silver (-ling)." (Emphasis theirs). The USA controls the economies of many of those nations because of the Oil. And the "precious things of Egypt" are its ports that were vital for the gulf war. They are "precious" to Egypt because they are vital for its economy, “Today, the Canal is a vital link in world trade, and contributes significantly to the Egyptian economy; in 2009 the income generated from the canal accounted for 3.7% of Egypt's GDP” (The Economist, July 17–23, 2010) In fact "Egypt realized its [the ports it possesses] role at an international level. The government overplayed the infrastructure of a great maritime industry by building ports and supplying them with high tech. equipments to handle cargoes and passengers" (Rafimar).

Thiele then says, "Peter Salemi also claimed that the junior US President George Bush was the King of the North who fulfilled Daniel 11:44 with the ‘war on terrorism.’ Let’s look at Daniel 11:44:

44 But news from the east and the north shall trouble him; therefore he shall go out with great fury to destroy and annihilate many. (Daniel 11:44)

The ‘war on terrorism’ did result in a regime change in Iraq and Afghanistan. But this is not a fulfillment of Daniel 11:44.
" He says this is not a fulfillment of Daniel 11:44. We prove without a shadow of a doubt that it is the war on Terror in our booklet Middle East in Prophecy Here

The reason he disapproves of this is the fact that he believes Dan 11:44 is "tied" with these other scriptures:

50:41 “Behold, a people shall come from the north,
And a great nation and many kings
Shall be raised up from the ends of the earth.
42 They shall hold the bow and the lance;
They are cruel and shall not show mercy.
Their voice shall roar like the sea;
They shall ride on horses,
Set in array, like a man for the battle,
Against you, O daughter of Babylon.

43 “The king of Babylon has heard the report about them,
And his hands grow feeble;
Anguish has taken hold of him,
Pangs as of a woman in childbirth…”(Jeremiah 50:41-43).

1 The burden against Babylon which Isaiah the son of Amoz saw…

17 “Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them,
Who will not regard silver;
And as for gold, they will not delight in it.
18 Also their bows will dash the young men to pieces,
And they will have no pity on the fruit of the womb;
Their eye will not spare children.
19 And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms,
The beauty of the Chaldeans’ pride,
Will be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah. (Isaiah 13:1, 17-19)

11 Make the arrows bright!
Gather the shields!
The Lord has raised up the spirit of the kings of the Medes.
For His plan is against Babylon to destroy it,
Because it is the vengeance of the Lord,
The vengeance for His temple. (Jeremiah 51:11)
And claims "Essentially, Daniel 11:44 is telling us that a Eurasian power (which is north and east of Europe) will rise up against the European King of the North (watch also Can You Prove that the Beast to Come is European?)."

 Thiele agrees with us that these tidings are out of the East and the North is old Persia and Media. Here we are in agreement. But there is a problem with Thiele's tying these scriptures with Daniel 11:44. There is NO INVASION by the people of the North and the East. It just says, "But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many." Notice the King of the North is the aggressor  in Dan 11:44. The above scriptures show that the Medes and the Persians are the Aggressors, and that Babylon [Thiele believes the King of the North is the Beast-Babylon] if you notice, "The king of Babylon has heard the report about them, And his hands grow feeble;Anguish has taken hold of him, Pangs as of a woman in childbirth…”(Jeremiah 50:41-43). Does this sounds like him going out with "great fury" to make away many? These scriptures CANNOT be tied together because the above scriptures speak of the fall of Babylon by the Medes. Daniel 11:44 speaks of king of the north with "great fury" "make[ing] away" or "annihilating many."  So these scriptures cannot be speaking of Daniel 11:44 if the King of the North is the end time beast power.

And if you read the time setting of events of the Fall of modern day Babylon-the Beast, it takes place at the second coming of Christ AFTER THE TRIBULATION Rev 17:12-14. The King of the North comes to his end BEFORE THE TRIBULATION Daniel 11:45! This is where the churches of God have erred! They did not catch that vital clue and that there are two phases of the Potter's clay that end's before the tribulation Daniel 11:45, and the Miry Clay that ends at the second coming of Jesus (Rev  17:12-14). Bob Thiele has made that same error.

Thiele continues "Peter Salemi claims that Donald Trump is expected to be the King of the North who will fulfill Daniel 11:45. Let’s look at that verse:

45 And he shall plant the tents of his palace between the seas and the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and no one will help him. (Daniel 11:45)

This is not a prophecy about Donald Trump."
No its not! It is a prophecy of the King of the North whom we have identified as the President of the United States. We believe that Donald Trump so far fits the profile of the King of the North in Prophecy. If he fulfills these prophecies then he will be the King of the North prophesied.

Thiele goes on to say, "As far as the sequence of Daniel 11 goes, notice that the late WCG Pastor General Herbert W. Armstrong wrote the following:

In Daniel 11:21, referring in original, typical fulfillment to Antiochus Epiphanes, there shall stand up a vile person…So once again before the second coming of Christ, a vile leader will stop the daily sacrifices being offered…This same prophecy spoken by Jesus is also reported by Luke…21:20-24 (Armstrong HW. Personal, Plain Truth magazine, June 1967).

Thus, Herbert W. Armstrong clearly taught that starting at least from verse 21, that Daniel 11 had a dual/future fulfillment."
As I have noted above the old interpretation of prophecy is wrong because the King of the North comes to his end before the tribulation, and HWA was ignorant of the potters clay and the miry clay. We cannot go by this interpretation of prophecy. Yes A vile person will come but that will be the time when the Holy Roman empire mixed with miry clay rises the 7th and final beast comes and fights Christ at his coming.

He continues to say, "In the same video, Peter Salemi implies that NATO is the endtime Beast (no we do not, we say the EU is the coming end of the 6th head of the beast) composed of iron and potter’s clay, which seems to be a reference to Daniel 2:41-43. Basically, he says that the alliance of the USA with Europe in NATO is that combination. He says that China will do something that will cause NATO to end. I do not share his view on that." That's nice, we are not asking for his approval

Then he gives his reason, "The Book of Revelation identifies the Beast as an individual (Revelation 13:1-10) that will be destroyed upon Jesus’ return (Revelation 19:19-20). Thus, it cannot be NATO." We never said it was NATO. NATO we say will break apart and the Holy Roman Empire will rise mixed with miry clay and the beast will fight Christ at his coming. The beast means a king and his kingdom (see Daniel 7:17, 23). The Beast's kingdom will be destroyed and the beast the individual the king, Jesus will destroy him as well.

So Our position for the King of the North is defended and proved and Bob Thiele is wrong on his interpretation of prophecy and holds on to an old HWA interpretation of Daniel 11

Then Bob Thiele takes a drastic turn and says, "When I checked out more at BICOG’s website last night and today, I found that Peter Salemi had written improper and negative things about me. This was a surprise as I do not believe I had ever posted anything negative about him before nor have we met." Here he plays the victim and just could not resist talking about himself as many of these Armstrong ministers do, stroking the old ego. Yes I have preached against the belief about him claiming to be a prophet, and have proved that there are no more prophets today. We have all the prophecies we need in the Bible-even HWA said the same thing, But when I hear and see claims of people being prophets you bet I am going to preach against it, Jesus warned us of false prophets and that warning needs to go out.

Then he goes into my background that I attended CGI and says, "BICOG is another non-Philadelphian group that is misleading people on prophecy and other matters. Those who rely on groups like BICOG will not possibly know when the Great Tribulation will begin, as well as have other spiritual problems. BICOG is one of many groups with that problem (for more details, see The Laodicean Church Era)." We have spiritual problems? The man says he is a prophet and believes in church eras as he clearly reveals in this statement-when church eras is found NOWHERE in the Bible. I always say that these Armstrongite preachers should look in the Mirror and ask themselves "maybe I'm the problem?" because he definitely is and he just doesn't see it.

He then says, "I perhaps should also add that in the sequence of Daniel 11, the USA itself gets taken over in verse 39, hence no President of the USA can possibly fulfill Daniel 11:40-45 (see also USA in Prophecy: The Strongest Fortresses)." Nowhere is the USA indicated in this prophecy. It speaks of the "God of Forces" In the Hebrew the “God of Forces” is el-o’-ah Mahuzzim. Mahuzzim it means: 1) Place or means of safety, protection, refuge, stronghold 1a) place of safety, fastness, harbor, stronghold 1b) refuge (of God) (figuratively) 1c) human protection (figuratively) (Browns-Driver-Briggs’ Hebrew Definitions). These places of refuge in medieval times were the monasteries. These were places of refuge for many people in Europe, and was one of the “...new institutions [that] emerged in the western church, which were to be lifelines in the dangerous rapids between a civilization which had collapsed and one yet to be born.” (The Penguin History of the World, J.M. Roberts, p.299). The emperors through European history during the Middle Ages up to the time of Hitler and Mussolini honored the God of the refuge cities which is the Pope and made alliances with the Popes and showered them with riches.

At the end he says, "It does matter which COG you pay attention to and support.

We in the Continuing Church of God “have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts” (2 Peter 1:19, KJV).”
Yes it does matter who you pay attention to. It just depends on are they following the Bible and are they letting the Bible interpret itself or are they putting their ideas into it. Do they have "a sure word of prophecy"? From the evidence above? I don't think so!